>> hinojosa: as shifting demographics change america's museums, one institution is wrestling with how to showcase the artwork of all latinos. with us today, the director of new york city's el museo del barrio, julian zugazagoitia. i'm maria hinojosa, this is one on one. julian zugazagoitia, nice to have you here as the director of el museo del barrio, from new york city. >> thank you for your invitation. >> hinojosa: so you are born in mexico city, then you spend about 20 years living in europe, and then in 1999, you come to new york to work at the guggenheim, and then you're named to head up this museum

called el museo del barrio. correct. >> hinojosa: so el museo del barrio started kind of as a puerto rican institution, very grass roots, very community-based... >> correct. >> hinojosa: ...and it's had to change its mission. >> we've had to more than change it. we have amplified its mission, so over the course of the last 40 years-- and it's... we're celebrating our 40th anniversary with a big expansion of el museo, a big renovation of el museo. and over the 40 years, what has changed is also the profile of the us as perhaps the most diverse latino country. >> hinojosa: because basically, 40 years ago, el barrio, spanish harlem, was predominantly-- it had been italian at one point-- but it was predominantly a puerto rican community. >> correct, and el barrio has always been a place of immigrants, and i think that is also something very, very, very imporant to notice is that that part of the upper east side of manhattan has always been very welcoming.

and before italian, it was irish, and so it has that tradition. but definitely since the '40s, puerto ricans started making el barrio their home, and then the name, therefore, el barrio. and it is very, very... a sense of the place where they would gather. then there's the creation of organizations and institutions like la marqueta where they would shop, and so it is full of history. and el museo emerges, also, of those social movements in the '60s-- in the late '60s-- where different communities were looking and researching for their own roots and to be respected for their contributions. and definitely, the artistic contributions is what the people around el museo del barrio were fighting for. >> hinojosa: because at that time-- i mean, we're talking 1969... >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: ...the throes of the civil rights movement across the country... >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: ...and in new york, the puerto rican community basically felt that they were excluded from many parts of the city, but certainly in terms of

a cultural expression. >> correct. >> hinojosa: and so it's born from this basically grassroots artists saying, "we want a space; we want to be visible; we want to be recognized." >> i think... exactly. the climate was that, and there's one artist that was approached by the partment o education in those years that is the son of puerto rican parents that has already gone to art school at pratt-- so downtown-- and who's starting to lead a very prominent international career. his name is raphael montañez ortiz, and the department of education approaches him to build some curriculum so that curriculum studies will bring some of that puerto rican experience of being a latino artist to the schools. and he says, "no, we're going to create a museum. curriculum is not good enough." and apparently, they and... and then the man from the department of education was like, "well, that's so ambitious," i mean, "this is a very young man,

imagine," and on. >> hinojosa: and he's basically saying... >> saying, "i'm going to create..." >> hinojosa: ..."i want to create a major cultural institution in new york city. >> and his answer to this man who's saying, "this is very ambitious," he said, "if i were an alpinist, i would be the first puerto rican climbing the everest, and i think climbing the everest may be easier than founding a museum today, in retrospect." and raphael ortiz did it. it started very tiny. it actually started on the upper west side in a classroom, and from there, he went on a trip with these people from the department of eduction to puerto rico and collected some objects. so it really... our founding history has to do immediately of becoming a collecting institution. so we were one of the, perhaps, most long history of a latino institution collecting works of art, which is the proper role of a museum-- carrying and collecting and developing a collection. so he brought some taino objects, some prints, and some nd art, poular art, santos de palo, and fromhat small collection, little by little, it

grew. and we've been, since 1977, what i would consider really the cornerstone of our development. the crossroads between fifth avenue-- museum mile, and today we are the top of museum mile at 104th street-- and well, 104th street, the entryway to el barrio. >> hinojosa: to el barrio. and probably, we should probably spend one second just explaining to people, because they're saying, "what's this word 'el barrio'?" >> uh-huh. >> hinojosa: el barrio means... neighborhood. >> totally, mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: it means community. >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: but in new york, el barrio meant puerto ricans, really. i mean, there was a sense that el barrio ( speaking spanish ). it was a kind of puerto rican town. >> it was home. i mean, i think i would even go futher. i think it meant home, and as we were saying earlier, el museo in its growth, then now, on this corner-- fifth avenue, 104th street-- it's the best of both words. it's really the integration of the highest museum concentration in the world of the best quality

of the museums going from the met, the guggenheim, the jewish museum, the design museum, the cooper-hewitt. you know, you have all of those museums lined up, and so now, the city museum of new york, which is our neighbor, and then el museo del barrio has a home from which to really propel our culture. >> hinojosa: but the truth is is that there was a long time, once el museo kind of gets off and running, that el museo del barrio was kind of seen as, you know, as that kind of arts institution up there in spanish harlem. it was not necessarily taken seriously as a true, artisic museum, per se. i mean, what... there was that kind of feeling towards el museo del barrio, right? i mean, kind of like second... second-class citizen? >> well, i think... i think it's, again, a question of time, and i think it's so hard to develop an institution, and i think one has to give it to each of those board members, staff people, directors, that little by little, grew it.

and it kind of had a life, and you know that also the crisis of the city in the '70s was not very helpful, and so the life of el museo has been of constant growth and a little bit of tweaking. but i think what was most decisive in the growth of el museo is the last, i would say, ten, 15 years. and when my predecessor, susana torruella leval, took it as director, she was the one also sensing how much the community around el museo had been changing. >> hinojosa: because people don't realize that, you know, mid-1980s... >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: ...el barrio-- and i was actually living there at the time... >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: ...starts... and i... because i'm mexican and i remember, you know, being in that neighborhood and not... not seeing any mexicans, and then all of a sudden, one night, 2:00 in the morning, i'm in a cab and i start to hear mexican ranchera music on lexington avenue and 116th street and i said, "okay, this is it."

>> totally. >> hinojosa: basically, el barrio starts yet another kind of a transformation; this one where you're seeing the complexity of the latino experience, where it's not just puerto ricans-- who, by the way, are not immigrants, per se, because they're born as american citizens. but then, el barrio becomes more mexican, more domincan, more kind of diverse. when you are named the head of el museo del barrio, there is a huge controversy. >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: you're the first non-puerto rican to head what is considered, actually, in its formation, a puerto rican cultural institution. talk a little bit about what that was like. you have this artistic background from, you know, from louvre and the sorbonne, and then you come into this institution. they're saying, "hey, wait a second; you may be latino, you may be mexican, but you don't represent what el museo del barrio's supposed to be all about. >> correct, and actually, that was... that was... i was surprised a little bit by that. i think, you know, in a way it

was... i was selected by my artistic credentials and my understanding of the richness, complexity of latino/latin american culture. but that... that tension that existed-- and again, at the beginning, with that... what... that pushing back, what it really told me is how important this institution was for the community. so it was a really validating factor that the museum has been doing very good work, if people felt so powerful about it, you know? >> hinojosa: so connected to it. >> exactly. so at the same time, one of the things that was very important is to make sure that as... and i think the hardest part of expanding the mission really, really was the work of my predecessor, of susana leval, who really understood that new york was changing so much and that in order for the museo to continue to grow, it had to really accomdate and think about all the new communities that were part of the latino experience.

>> hinojosa: let me... let me stay with you for what it was like for you, again, as a mexicano, because you also kind of have to come into your own identity as a... not just a mexicano, but now as not just a latin american, but as a latino. >> yeah. >> hinojosa: which is quite different than... you know, you're not a latino when you live in latin america. you're a latino when you come to the united states. >> totally, no, and i think that is... that is a fascinating thing. so while this had happened, i thought that that opening of the mission and that embracing had already been done. so i come to museo and i... i... there is all this controversy, and the reason i was drawn to el museo in this particular stage of my life was the fact that i had grown to be a latino in europe, actually. because in mexico, no, you're just there, you know? but as i moved to europe and then when i started working at unesco, well, there was subgroups of... and the... the group of caribbean and latin american people to discuss some

issues. so there, both in the artistic communities of poets, of artists and everything, i encountered the fact that i participated to a larger thing than being mexican, but it was that we have so much in common and we shared so many experience. and so moments that i will always treasure is meeting the big artist, the chilean artist roberto matta. >> hinojosa: lucky you! >> he was like a mentor to a younger group of artts that had created a group, and i was just there and that is where i was starting to write about art and meeting artists like saul kaminer or... you know? there were a group of artists, poets, literary people, and that's when i define, "oh, i participate, belong, to a conversation that is latin american, and that we have so much in common." and then when i got to new york, and that's when i realize what an importance that that i had discovered, and that it was

not as present in europe. in the united states it has a very particular meaning, and it is something that more and more people are enjoying. so what is very... and so when i'm offered to go to el museo del barrio, i think i took it as a responsibility for thinking about this identity for the future of our kids, you know, in that sense. >> hinojosa: but you're... you're thrown into this kind of major debate around latino identity... >> mm-hmm, mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: ...and you know, a lot of people look at the latino community, and just say, "it's a latino community..." >> mm-hmm, mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: ...and have a hard time saying, "well, this person is mexican, or "this person is dominican," and "this person is chilean." there's a kind of homogeneity that people wod like to e in the latino community, but in fact, i always like to say we're at the tip of the iceberg in terms of understanding the complexity of latino reality in this country. i mean, there's... how can you possibly... well, i mean, this is a good question for you. how can you possibly be a museum of latino art?

>> well... >> hinojosa: what is latino art? >> i think that you're touching the most complex question of all, of course, and let me tell you how we try to address that at el museo. first of all, the important thing is to recognize that yes, if there is a big label called "latino," the label is to be made so we can define it-- so it's an active process of defining. >> hinojosa: and it's always changing. >> and it's... it will change. and... >> hinojosa: and we should be open to that change? >> to explore it, at least. and on the other side, we have a tremendous respect for the history, for the artistic contributions of individuals that have their own history. so what we try to do is balance a program in which individual expressions come. but what i feel is that we have so much more in common sometimes-- that the things that divide, sometimes, are communities. and so el museo has prided itself of always bringing the best of each of our artists, the best of our poets, the best of our writers, to share and partake in what we have.

and i think by doing that, also what we've gained is a visibility that-- and also, i think it is part of so a common trend-- more non-latinos are attracted by understanding and joy and excitement of latino culture. so for someone who doesn't know those subtle differences, we kind of portray like we are a trusted venue in which you will discover something specific about our latino culture. and that is the... yeah. >> hinojosa: when people say, though, "well, wait a second. el museo del barrio was supposed to be a community-based organization that showcased community artists..." >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: ...and critics say, "well, wait a second. now at el museo del barrio you can go in and see the artwork of frida kahlo..." >> mm-hmm. >> hinojosa: "...or you're going to see taino relics." and they're going to say, "well, wait a second. that's not community-based art." so what do you say to that? how do you separate community-based art, the importance of community-based art, versus the kind of refined

perspective of fine art, and elevating latinos there? >> well, i think it comes with the maturity of our organization, and it comes with the transformation of our organization. and the fact that what we pride ourselves to be is always open for the community, and the community has embraced... this past saturday we had 2,000 people coming for an event we called super sabado. so check on your web sites if you're looking at us, and see when is the next super sabado. because there are events for all the families. it starts in the morning, and it goes through the day for different kind of audiences. but you can partake. but what we have to guarantee is that whether you're an abuelita or a young child that the qualtiy of the art is the most elevating one that you will find. why? because we're in new york. because we're competing against the met. we're competing against the moma. and so that is what has pushed and really made the move

of el museo forward insofar that if we're competing with those great institutions, we have to showcase for the enlightenment of all our communities the best art. and in doing that, it's always dialogues. i mean, it's the curators that work at el museo who are working on this. we take enormous time, pride, of working closely with artists. and so for instance we have our biennial, and now we're going to be preparing for the next one. the biennial is the work of identifying latinos and latin americans that work within a two-three hours radius of our museum and see what they're doing, what they're creating. so our... we receive sometimes 600 files-- and it's called the selected files-- for unsolicited files, and it's wound down until the curators get a very close approach with each of the artists to nurture them. >> hinojosa: but what do you see when you kind of look into the future of, let's say, ten, 20 years from now?

you know, latinos are now considered the largest minority group. i don't like the term "minority," but for lack of a better term. or the second majority. you want to call it that? >> hinojosa: the second majority. i like that. so what about cultural institutions down the line, when people say, "wait a second-- all of our cultures are all meshing together. do we need a museum of latino art?" do we need, for example... right now the name of the museum that's coming up in washington, the national museum of the american latino. wait a second-- aren't we all american? shouldn't we all be sharing each other's culture? i mean, you have these kinds of discussions within el museo all the time, i'm sure. >> total. and i think... yeah, some people say, "well, if everybody shows latin american art, latino art..." like right now, more and more museums are starting to either have a curator that deals with latin american art, or have collections expanding, or even

showcasing temporal shows. but at the same time, you always have to redefine your mission accordingly, and take stock of what's going around you. and i think el museo has proposed a number of artists and everything. so it's still relevant, because we do it 365 days a year. some museums will put one show, and then three years later put another one. so i think of el museo as a platform. and i think exhibitions are just really the tip of the iceberg of what we do, because what we really do day in, day out is serve more than 50,000 children and families through our education department. so any given day, you have children coming, not only looking at an exhibition, going to our labs on the third floor, doing hands-on workshops. we will have at any given time arts educators from el museo in the schools in the five boroughs. >> hinojosa: so that's one of the things that you consider central, this question of maintaining the education, of really building up the next

generation of latino artists. but i wonder... >> and museumgoers. and i would say what we really work is on visual literacy, and the appreciation of and understanding that art can transform your life. so we're not into making art historians or artists of each of the children that are arts educators, but in giving them tools that, with our cultural heritage, that ty can define, they can enrich themselves. and you don't have to be latino to enjoy and enrich yourself with our heritage. >> hinojosa: but there are certain particularities of things that happen within the latino community, complexities that are being faced. one of them is the class complexity. >> totally. >> hinojosa: how do you, as the director of a museum based in el barrio deal with the issue of these kind of... on the one hand, a very wealthy part of the latino community, on the other hand an entirely disenfranchised and scared... >> well, actually, i mean, this is a very, very important point. and i think in most communities also this kind of a duality exists.

but i think never as pointed as in our latino community. on the one side, the very positive thing is that more and more of these people of certain wealth are becoming philanthropic, you know? and for us latinos it has never been the normal thing, because in our countries there's not this notion of philanthropy like it is valued here in the us. so more and more we're starting to see newcomers or generations of self-made latinos starting to be philanthropic. now, of course, the first needs th address somim is legal representation, education, health. art comes after we have taken care of that. on the other side, these very generous people that support el museo, they support el museo because they know that we are taking care of this other group of people. and our education programs and a lot of our public programs have that in particular. so of all the schools we serve-- we serve 254 schools right now-- many of them are in the poorest neighborhoods. many of them immediately have

also the biggest... we're averaging 60% to 70% minorities in those schools, where the average latino population in public schools in new york is 40%. so of course our efforts are concerted so that they benefit from the existence of a cultural institution that is closer to their needs. and then we also take account of the fact that yes, it is intimidating. imagine that your parents immigrated here, they're hardworking, they barely speak english. the kids start to be the go-between. and let me tell you one anecdote, one beautiful thing that happened one day. a museum is not a place that normally these hardworking people would go. but because we have a... we go very presently to their schools and everything, and we gave bilingual fliers to come for free to el museo, one girl was touring her father. so you see the pride first of the girl explaining to her father, this man that perhaps

that was a first experience going through the threshold of a museum. a bit intimidating and everything, but the bond that was happening there was amazing. so we're really working for making those young children, those new latinos, new americans, that are the future of this country are proud of their heritage, that they now also are ambassadors toward the parents. completely different than what happened. my parents dragged me to museums, and i hated it, you know? i don't know how things changed eventually. >> hinojosa: your parents dragged you to museums and you hated it? >> i didn't like it. i didn't like it. i didn't like it. it wasn't until i started going on my own... >> hinojosa: okay, so that means lesson for everybody-- it's okay if you sometimes drag your kids to a museum. you never know-- your kid might end up being a museum director. >> and i drag my kids, and they don't like it, you know? but the early experience, this is important. early exposure to art, it's moments... when we go to classrooms, it's the moment in which there's a bit of freedom in the curriculum, it's like... in which they can express

themselves. and beauty comes out of that, you know? >> hinojosa: so when you think about the future, you know, this is kind of your more position as a curator, and as arts... what does latinart look like in the future if now, you know, you're second or third generation? and what about those artists who say, "look, i'm an artist. i happen to be latino, and part of that influences me, but i'm an artist. don't label me as a latino artist, because i'm an artist." >> that is happening more and more. and for instance, there was recently a very important retrospective of the work of gabriel orozco at the museum of modern art in new york. and gabriel orozco comes in a generation that studied in the '90s, and is really an international postconceptual globetrotter kind of artist that today defines himself by the myriad of experience that he has had. so more and more i think... of

course, all of our history influences and informs everything we do. but some artists i think feel they have more in common with an international group of artists, or international issues that they're dealing with. and also, for instance, today, an artist drawing in new york has more in common with another artist living in london or mumbai-- they are big capitols, big cities, in which a lot of things are going on-- then someone painting in chihuahua, you know? so rural, urban, global connections are changing the way we think. so perhaps the labels will be urban artists versus rural artists at one point or another. >> hinojosa: so if there is a young latino artist, or any artist, your message to them is what, as they're watching this and they're saying, "look, that's a huge art world, there's no way i can compete"? as director of el museo del barrio, what do you want these

young people who are thinking about the arts, what's the message? >> the message, i think, is contemporary art really is a translation of what people are living. so i would recommend, go to see all the galleries. galleries... i mean, if you're living in a city like new york or boston, or that there are galleries representing artists, go to all the shows. they're free, and you can enter. you can even sometimes sip a little bit of wine in their opening. go and see what other artists are doing, how they're expressing themselves, and live life at the fullest. because it's only then that your art will also be at the fullest. so i think expressing oneself... and if you have it inside, just go for it with all your heart. >> hinojosa: well, good luck with el museo del barrio. >> well, we invite all of you who are watching to come and to visit us, whether online-- we have a nice new web site after our reopening-- or to visit us physically, because we have transformed to be more welcoming and more embracing for all. >> hinojosa: gracias, julian. >> gracias.

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